Question about suffering

Bring on the Pain wrote:

Question: Is it the Lord's will that His children should suffer? I guess I always understood the Lord's prayer to mean that His desire is that "His will be done on earth JUST AS IT IS in heaven." If this is true, would be safe to say, pray, believe, that it is ALWAYS God's will for us to be free from sickness, debt/poverty, painful physical afflictions, depression, etc...? I don't think any of these undesireables are going on in heaven...

And if God is able (which He is) to deliver us from all such undesireables, then why is His will not being manifest in the lives of His loved ones when they cry out for help? I'm all for building character, but sometimes it seems that we are tempted or tried beyond what we are able to handle. Like with depression for instance, which greatly plagues our country and world, I know for a fact depression isn't always just a temporary mood swing. It can be a killer driving some people to take their very own lives... Even if God gave them a way out, it doesn't seem like it when they are so hopeless and unable to see it, or else they would have chosen life instead of death.

To start, i think we again have to look at the idea of what GOD's will is. Many people believe (whether they realize it or not) that there are three 'wills' of GOD. One is the the revealed will of GOD. The Bible. Two is the hidden will of GOD, which is the secret counsel of GOD that only HE really knows that governs HIS plans to glorify HIMSELF. The third that i think doesn't exist, but many believe exists has to do with this, "GOD's will for 'my' life." That somehow GOD has a very special, specific plan for each of us that if we deviate from it in the slightest, everything will fall apart. I do believe that GOD knows all things, and that HE is sovereign over all, and i do believe that HIS desire is for our lives to line up with HIS Word, but i don't believe if i decide to eat at Burger King instead of Chik-fil-A, everything will go awry. Many people beat themselves up trying to make decisions about their lives because of their believe in this third will. There's much more to that line of thought, but i'll stop there for now to get back to the question.

Okay with that being said, i think that somehow in the 'secret' will of GOD, suffering accomplishes HIS glory. Primarily because it grows our character and increases our faith. That makes it a little different from what happens in heaven because in many ways faith is obsolete in heaven. It's not really obsolete, but it's no longer 'unseen.' To be more accurate the 'hope' part of faith is what goes away. Hope is based on what is to come, but once we have it, hope goes away. Ironically, you can say that heaven is a place with no hope. So, the main opportunity we have to increase our faith is in the now. Suffering does that well.

We also have to look more at suffering itself. Suffering is really a result of sin. We either suffer for our own sin or we suffer because of the sin of another. There is also suffering that has to do with the overall effects of the fall of man (for example, cancer. It's not necessarily dependent on one person's sin, but the result of world broken by sin.) Because heaven is a place with no sin, there is also no suffering.

Suffering builds our character, increases our faith, and in many ways makes us long for something else. I've heard others comment that we are not home yet. If this world were 'too easy,' we would not be like John in Revelation, "Come quickly, LORD JESUS." Many people in the NT believed that JESUS would return in their lifetimes, and some have made a big deal out of that, but the point would be that they understood, (especially with having been with JESUS,) that this world stinks compared to the glory that is to be revealed. My phrasing actually comes from the verse that compares 'suffering' with the glory that will be revealed. In many ways, then the question almost becomes mute because the today's suffering is inconsequential compared to the future's glory.

You are right that JESUS prays for GOD's will to be done the way that it is already being done in heaven. Because of sin, it will never be that way on the earth until JESUS returns and makes all things right. Suffering was not part of GOD's plan for humanity, but it has now been incorporated into things for us to be made more like CHRIST. If we had never sinned (in Adam,) then we would have had no need to suffer.

To answer the more heartfelt question - why do HIS children suffer? Honestly, i don't know. It's just not that easy. I do think that it has to do with character building, and i also think it has to do with evangelism. I've heard plenty of stories of believers on death's door witnessing to the other people in their hospital rooms or to the nurses or doctors. These people are impacted because of the peace that the believer is expressing. Everyone in the world has moments of happiness, but what distinguishes the believer is the ability to exhibit peace and joy when everyone else would be falling apart. It's when we act differently from the norms of the world that the world notices. To steal a line from JESUS, "You are happy when things are going well, so what? Even the Gentiles do that."

I wonder about your question when i think about my grandmother. She was a major spiritual influence in my life, especially early on, but she has spent the last year or so in a nursing home. She has no idea who i am. Many days she doesn't even know who my mom (her daughter) is. I don't think my grandmother even knows her own name really. Her husband has passed away. Her other son died a few years ago. Why is she still here? Her continuing to live continues to drain financial resources. When she dies, the government will take her house to pay the nursing home bills, so my mom will have to find some other place to live. My mom lives by herself and struggles with her own problems (including borderline depression.) I live almost 5 hours away, and it's difficult for me to be too involved. Why is my grandmother still alive? She's not developing her walk with GOD from what i can tell. I really don't get it, but for some reason, GOD is still using her in someone's life. I know HE has a purpose, but the reality is many of HIS purposes are going to stay hidden in his 'secret' will, so i have to just trust HIM. Maybe that is the essence of faith. Trusting when you don't fully understand.

I do agree that depression has much more to it than simply brief periods of sadness. There are a lot of people that believe it's just a result of sin (as i once did,) but i realize my foolishness now.

The last little comment would that sometimes what we think is suffering isn't even suffering at all. I might think i'm suffering because i couldn't find a parking place close to the door and it's raining. That's not suffering.

Well, that sounds like a lot of rambling, but maybe some of it made sense.

True true. The Lord disciplines whom he loves. I can think of 2 reasons to discipline a child. 1) To teach them the value of perserverence and self control. Ex. Developing skills and team ethics for a soccer team. Training for a gymnastics compitition. 2) Correction for misbehavior.

By this deduction I can conclude that our Heavenly Father will make our lives challenging for at least those 2 reasons. Of course we live in a sin cursed world too which affects us regardless if we are serving the Lord with singlness of heart which would be the third reason why we may be experiencing tribulation.

Here's what I'd like to know. If the Lord is intentionally causing tribulation because of our sin (if we sinned and are being disciplined) how can we know? How can we be certain so that we can examine our hearts and lives so that we can change the way we are choosing and living? I'd like to know with clarity if I am working against the will of God so I can change my thinking or correct my behavior if necessary.

I don't like going through tribulations and trials in life unnecessarily. I'm not into self affliction. So is there a way to differentiate between whether our tribulations are because of the sin cursed world we live, if the Lord is training us in general, or if we screwed up and are getting a divine spanking?

Thanks

Bring on the Pain wrote:True true. The Lord disciplines whom he loves. I can think of 2 reasons to discipline a child. 1) To teach them the value of perserverence and self control. Ex. Developing skills and team ethics for a soccer team. Training for a gymnastics compitition. 2) Correction for misbehavior.

By this deduction I can conclude that our Heavenly Father will make our lives challenging for at least those 2 reasons. Of course we live in a sin cursed world too which affects us regardless if we are serving the Lord with singlness of heart which would be the third reason why we may be experiencing tribulation.

Here's what I'd like to know. If the Lord is intentionally causing tribulation because of our sin (if we sinned and are being disciplined) how can we know? How can we be certain so that we can examine our hearts and lives so that we can change the way we are choosing and living? I'd like to know with clarity if I am working against the will of God so I can change my thinking or correct my behavior if necessary.

I don't like going through tribulations and trials in life unnecessarily. I'm not into self affliction. So is there a way to differentiate between whether our tribulations are because of the sin cursed world we live, if the Lord is training us in general, or if we screwed up and are getting a divine spanking?

Thanks

AH. I've heard that question before. I think that you might actually be hinting at a better question, but let's start with this one first.

Quick side note: I would probably tweak your reasons for discipline by saying i think the purpose of discipline is to produce repentance. If GOD punished us for all our misbehavior, we would be miserable indeed, but i think that HE disciplines us for to lead us to repent. If we are repentant immediately, then discipline may not come. Of course, sometimes we think we are repentant, but we are not, so discipline may still come. I would also possibly put some type of comment in here about the need for public discipline for public sin, but let's leave that part out for now.

Here's the difference between the two in your question

Case 1 - Suffering because you sinned

1. You suffer
2. You are not sure why, so you ask GOD to show you
3. The HOLY SPIRIT convicts you of your sin
4. You stop sinning
5. The suffering stops

Case 2 - Suffering for righteousness sake (and/or faith building)

1. You suffer
2. You are not sure why, so you ask GOD to show you
3. The LORD begins to strengthen your faith and maybe gives you peace
4. You grow in character/faith
5. Suffering may continue or it may stop

Now the big question has to do with how do you know the answer to step 2. To me that is where you have to combine, prayer, The Word, the body of CHRIST, and the power of the HOLY SPIRIT.

1. Prayer - Where you are continually laying your soul out before GOD seeking guidance
2. The Word - reveals to us the Will of GOD (more on that later.) This is why it is so important for us to continually be reading and studying GOD's Word
3. The body of CHRIST - others around us that can hopefully be more objective that can point out sin
4. The HOLY SPIRIT - conviction of sin is listed as one of HIS main jobs. HE uses The Word, the body of CHRIST, and our time in prayer to show us our sin and/or strengthen our faith.

To risk sounding trite, i really think that the process is that simple. What makes it hard is our lack of understanding what the 'will of GOD' means and our tendencies to justify our own sin (part of the reason we need objective brothers and sisters in CHRIST.)

Now let's answer the really tough question that i think so many people wrestle with, and that has to do with understanding the will of GOD.
I think that the will of GOD is revealed clearly in scripture - don't steal, don't murder, encourage one another, be careful what you say, etc. Where people make things difficult is in two areas - 1. Making applications 2. Trying to define GOD's will as something bigger than what i just wrote.

1. The problems in making applications has to do with the heart of legalism, and i won't spend a lot of time there. Basically people take principles from scripture, apply them to a specific situation, then think that the specific situation is true for everyone, everywhere.

2. Trying to define GOD's will as something bigger - This is where i see well meaning people make themselves absolutely miserable. I'll use a simple example to illustrate the idea. Have you ever heard someone say something like, "I'm considering taking this job, but i'm trying to decide if it's GOD's will for my life?" Is it honest work? Does it provide for your family? Are there opportunities to glorify GOD in the job? If you answered yes, then sure, take the job. I don't believe that if you are trying to decide between becoming a teacher or becoming a doctor that there's a wrong answer. The jobs themselves don't have anything sinful about them.

So, then how do you make a decision like that. That's where you get back to scripture. You have to sit down and think about your desires and motives. If you want to be a doctor because they make tons of money, then there's something wrong. If you want to be a doctor because you like helping people and you're good in biology, then go for it. If you have a difficult time working with children, then probably consider not being a teacher.

The good thing then is that all of this takes you back to what is revealed in GOD's Word, and in some ways, makes things easier.

So let's tie this thing together. Say, you are suffering. Then consider your heart. Did you just make a decision for the wrong reason? Then maybe this is GOD trying to get you to repent of that wrong motive. It doesn't mean that you have to change your decision, but it means you have to change your heart.

I think that suffering should make us look at our hearts, but i think that we then bare our hearts to the LORD and allow HIS Word to show us what is true. Sometimes it will reveal sin. Then repent. Sometimes it will bring comfort. Then be patient.

Well, i'll stop there. I can go on and on about these topics because i see so many people struggling with some of these things.

Word!